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Permalink Reply by Chris Beauchamp on 9th mo. 25, 2013 at 12:00pm

I very much agree!  

Jim Wilson said:

My hope is that in the near future to have an online site devoted to Quaker Quietism; but these things always take longer than planned.  My view is that the period of Quietism (sometimes called the second period of Quaker history) has much to offer us today.  I personally feel that modern Quakers have become too involved in politics and various social movements.  My hope is that becoming acquainted with the Quaker Quietists might act as an antidote to this.

Hope this is helpful,

Jim
 

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Permalink Reply by Martin on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 4:51am

But Chris, there are many different personal ideas about God, both within Quakers and across the Christian traditions - and these ideas and experiences are by definition subjective.  So how can we say that any one of these is a "misrepresentation"?   Are you saying that Quaker ideas about God are more "true" than Methodist ideas or Catholic ideas, or whatever?

Also I'm puzzled by the introduction of words like "Truth" and "Reality", which seem to imply an objective experience, whereas in practice we're talking a very subjective experience - so wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about "my truth" or "your reality"?

Chris Beauchamp said:

Well said. 

I don't think our personal ideas about God necessarily misrepresent.  They are personal to us.  They cannot misrepresent to us.  Rather, its when we make God 'Human' that we get into trouble. . . because we can only see and understand through our humanness. . . but God is Truth. . .and Truth is Reality Itself.  So we see and with our limited ability, understand God when we see and understand Truth / Reality.   Again, not what humans consider Truth. . . or Human Reality. .  not Physical.   There is always more for us to see, to examine, to understand - - more and higher information.  But we have to be open and available to receive and consider.    Its the path to becoming fully human. 

 

 
Spiny Norman said:

But there are so many different personal ideas about God - how do we know who is misrepresenting?

Forrest Curo said:

But the theism of people who misrepresent God -- is the most potent cause of antitheism. 

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Permalink Reply by Martin on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 4:53am

I don't think non-theist Quakers do undermine that central insight, Jim.  

Jim Wilson said:

Good Morning Spiny:

Whether non-theism is a good or bad thing depends on your point of view.  Personally, I think it undermines the central insight of the Quaker tradition; that there is one, Christ Jesus, who speaks to our condition.  

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Permalink Reply by Jim Wilson on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 10:58am

Good Morning Spiny:

I hope you are right and that I am wrong.  I can only say that the non-theists I have spoken to personally, and the interactions I have had on the web with same, lead me to my conclusion.  But, again, I'd be happy to be wrong about that.

Thanks,

Jim

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Permalink Reply by Tim Lillie on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 12:03pm

Well of course they do. It's completely false and very dangerous to suggest otherwise. Suggesting that those who deny God while insisting they are Quakers is irresponsible nonsense. Some Quakers have been trying to be generous to those who are not clear or still searching, but if anyone denies Christ, they have no business being a Quaker in any meaningful sense. They can call themselves anything they want, but that means nothing.

Spiny Norman said:

I don't think non-theist Quakers do undermine that central insight, Jim.  

Jim Wilson said:

Good Morning Spiny:

Whether non-theism is a good or bad thing depends on your point of view.  Personally, I think it undermines the central insight of the Quaker tradition; that there is one, Christ Jesus, who speaks to our condition.  

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Permalink Reply by Chris Beauchamp on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 1:21pm

No Spiny, I'm not saying that, not at all.    But a person is only capable of understanding within their limited consciousness. . or limited awareness. 

Nor am I saying that any of those other Faith's ideas are more true or less true.  Ultimately they're all based on human writings and leaving something behind and it gets passed down thru the ages.  Then other humans interpret it.   And it was all personal to them who wrote it. .. but that doesn't mean it was Truth.   

Jesus of Nazareth himself did not leave writings or teachings. . . he spoke, he did not write.  He did not build meetings halls or churches.  We do that as we find comfort in it. 

But there is always more than we know Spiny. 

To understand all of this fully we have to get away from My truth or My reality - -(or the personal word Our)  to the actual source of truth and reality itself which is always already.   Truth is Reality itself. . . or Pure Consciousness itself.  We live it each day. . . .until we mess it up with our limited human understanding.  That's why there are religious wars and arguments and such and they're all unnecessary. 

To truly understand we have to be willing to step out of our humanness. . . and go into the silence.  Listen and observe. 

 

 
Spiny Norman said:

But Chris, there are many different personal ideas about God, both within Quakers and across the Christian traditions - and these ideas and experiences are by definition subjective.  So how can we say that any one of these is a "misrepresentation"?   Are you saying that Quaker ideas about God are more "true" than Methodist ideas or Catholic ideas, or whatever?

Also I'm puzzled by the introduction of words like "Truth" and "Reality", which seem to imply an objective experience, whereas in practice we're talking a very subjective experience - so wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about "my truth" or "your reality"?

Chris Beauchamp said:

Well said. 

I don't think our personal ideas about God necessarily misrepresent.  They are personal to us.  They cannot misrepresent to us.  Rather, its when we make God 'Human' that we get into trouble. . . because we can only see and understand through our humanness. . . but God is Truth. . .and Truth is Reality Itself.  So we see and with our limited ability, understand God when we see and understand Truth / Reality.   Again, not what humans consider Truth. . . or Human Reality. .  not Physical.   There is always more for us to see, to examine, to understand - - more and higher information.  But we have to be open and available to receive and consider.    Its the path to becoming fully human. 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Chris Beauchamp on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 1:28pm

He was simply Jesus of Nazareth.  Christ was an Honorarium. . . given to him much later.  

He was not born Jesus the Christ. .  but studied with other Masters to fulfill this role as a world teacher.  A  role in which he tore apart people's assumptions and beliefs.  

Jim Wilson 

 

that there is one, Christ Jesus, who speaks to our condition.  

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Permalink Reply by Timothy on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 2:58pm

Christ speaks to His people Himself. I have found that it is not in the Earthquake, Wind, or Fire; but within the Quietness, He speaks in a still small voice of calm.

I think we could all agree with this, Friends. "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind..." a prayer around the time of an unsettled time for peace. Then let us Strive or Labour for that productive Stillness or Silence, abounding with Peace, Love, and other fruits of the Spirit!

Regards,

Timothy

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Permalink Reply by Chris Beauchamp on 9th mo. 26, 2013 at 3:58pm

 

and if I may add, such a beautiful passage I read which describes just this. . . The continuation to Strive or Labour  strengthens the instrument. . . to expand and create ever higher realizations and capacities within us.  The work is endless and always creates more work, but life is fruitful effort in constant relation to no other goal than continual growth.    

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Permalink Reply by Ray Lovegrove on 9th mo. 27, 2013 at 5:24am

Thank thee for reminding us of this Timothy.

Timothy Bruffy said:

Christ speaks to His people Himself. I have found that it is not in the Earthquake, Wind, or Fire; but within the Quietness, He speaks in a still small voice of calm.

I think we could all agree with this, Friends. "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind..." a prayer around the time of an unsettled time for peace. Then let us Strive or Labour for that productive Stillness or Silence, abounding with Peace, Love, and other fruits of the Spirit!

Regards,

Timothy

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Permalink Reply by Martin on 9th mo. 27, 2013 at 5:43am

I agree with much of that, Chris.  But does this experience of  pure consciousness depend on belief in God, and if so, how?

Chris Beauchamp said:

To understand all of this fully we have to get away from My truth or My reality - -(or the personal word Our)  to the actual source of truth and reality itself which is always already.   Truth is Reality itself. . . or Pure Consciousness itself.  We live it each day. . . .until we mess it up with our limited human understanding.  That's why there are religious wars and arguments and such and they're all unnecessary. 

To truly understand we have to be willing to step out of our humanness. . . and go into the silence.  Listen and observe. 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Martin on 9th mo. 27, 2013 at 5:49am

I'm puzzled, Tim.  As I understand it non-theist Quakers don't deny Christ, the difference is that they don't assume / believe he was the son of God.   

And are you saying that non-theist Quakers have no place in the Quakers?   I came across this web-site,  it seems like there a quite a few already: http://www.nontheistfriends.org/ 

Tim Lillie said:

 Some Quakers have been trying to be generous to those who are not clear or still searching, but if anyone denies Christ, they have no business being a Quaker in any meaningful sense. They can call themselves anything they want, but that means nothing.

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