Without regard to outward Persons, Communities, etc., there is Heaven.

Where there is no outward tradition, Where there is no outward Family, Where is no outward creed or doctrine, Where there is no outward institution, Where there is no outward community, Where there is no outward nation, Where this is no outward government, Where there is no outward practice, Where there is no outward religion; enter that empty space and patiently wait for the re-cognition of eternal human being independent of outward forms and professors of form. In patient waiting, without regard to any person, institution, or community, or practice, you will experience an increased measure of that eternal Presence within you and it will anchor your conscious and guide your conscience in all things so that your self-conscious and identity will intertwine and so embrace direct and unmediated Presence your self-hood will be remade in the image of Divine Presence itself which is then your inward Tradition, Family, Creed, Doctrine, Institution, Community, Nation, Government, Practice, Politic, and Religion. This is Heaven of Earth. This is the Second Coming. Both Heaven and the Second Coming is right now in unmediated inward Presence. This is the testimony (direct experienced inward Presence as Rule and Guide, without regard to persons and institutions) that confounds the mirrored or reflected intellectual, religious, secular, and political world. 

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Comment by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 5, 2015 at 4:08pm

I don't think this is necessarily true.  God is Love.  Coming down to earth as a baby was all about love.  Love requires an other as demonstrated by the Father sharing His life with His son and then creating Adam and Eve.  God created Eve so he could tell how much Adam would love another.  It wasn't good for Adam to be alone because he would just sit in front of the tv all day and watch football.  Once God created Eve Adam had a choice to make.

When I'm enveloped in the presence I have a choice.  I can sit in that Presence and be peaceful or I can try to enlighten others so they can occasionally experience that presence as well.  It's all a test with the intention of constantly improving His creation.  It really isn't all about us and making us as happy and peaceful as we can be.  It's all about giving God pleasure as He admires the love that flows from his many creations.  At least that's what I think I'm here for while on earth.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 5, 2015 at 6:57pm

No world without inwardness, no inwardness without a world 'outside.'

This isn't just one of those 'logic of opposites' commonplaces; who we are as individuals simply wouldn't have existed without the people who nurtured us, opposed us, gave and received one thing or another... and a community without the inward presencing would be nothing but a colony of robots. God may not have needed a world to love, but it wanted to come so He let it...

Comment by Keith Saylor on 7th mo. 5, 2015 at 8:40pm

The message pointing to another way of being in Presence itself is confounding. In Presence itself conscious and conscience are not anchored in outward forms and institutions. Presence itself is the institution, rule, and form. In this new life, meaning and identity are not in community, job, insttitional structure, tradition, etc. Meaning and identity rest in eternal Presence itself. Thus is not a rejection of the world and life in it. It is a new life, a new conscious and conscience that moves and acts in the world but is not anchored in it so that meaning, consciousness, and identity transcend dependency upon the reflections mirrored through the brain and the body.

It is generally true that who we are is because of those who nurtured us and opposed us. However, I tell you truly, by turning to and waiting upon the Impulse of the light within us, all that once made up our meaning and identity, that is, all that once anchored our conscious and informed our conscience through the mechanisms of the outward forms and institutions, pass away and a new life is experienced wherein the conscious is anchored in and the conscience I informed directly and without medation. In this new life human being realizes consciousness that sustains after the body no longer functions. This first and unmediated experience, even while in this world, is the divine and nature heritage of all human beings ... and we are truly free from the robotic nature.

Comment by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 9:33am

I understand that being in his Presence once this part of our existence has passed will be overpowering to the point where there could possibly be no outward concerns or even awareness of outside existence (I say possibly because nothing is impossible for God).  However, like Solomon, I think there is a season for everything we experience here in this part of our existence, even being fully and completely in His Presence. 

Comment by Keith Saylor on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 3:36pm


I appreciate your taking the time to express your reactions and I have no wish or expectation that your conscience follow that of mine. It is not for me to, in any way, impose upon your conscience. it is only mine to share the message of a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed directly and inwardly. My concern is your characterization of this spiritual experience as suggesting there are no outward concerns or  awareness of outside existence is  a mischaracterization. A life in and through inwardly experienced direct and unmediated Presence itself is not something looked forward to at some other time. The second coming is. Heaven is here now ... it is within us and around us. The message is that faith in the outward secular and religious forms, insitutions, governments, communities, traditions, practices, and similitudes, overshadow our hertiage as human beings. We when wait upon the measure of inward Light that is our birth right through Jesus Christ's sacrifice, we experience an ever increased measure of inward Light filling our consciousness and more and mre informing our conscience in all aspects of our daily life and actions in this  world. We no longer need place our faith in outward forms that overlay and shadown our conscious and conscience. By the power of that ever encreasing measure Presence within us we no longer partake of the nature of the first covenant which was based on outward forms. In the second covenant the conscious and conscience are born into a new Heritage that is within each of us right and in this present time and place. The water of regeneration is poured out upon us and those who are in the flood know the renewal of our very conscious and conscience so that the outward forms that the powers and principalites and professors would bind human conscious and conscience to no longer have power. Meaning and idenity in Presence itself is Heaven on earth.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 4:05pm

Keith, until and unless you can find some more creative way to say this, something to suggest more actual insight intuited from that Presence, it will continue to sound, to me at least, as if you are repeating an idea, based on other people's descriptions of their experiences, which you continue to seek external confirmation of.

Since seeking external confirmation is one measure of sanity, I can't say you shouldn't -- or that the system of ideas you're promoting is a bad one -- But consistency with what you in fact do -- would mean finding some provision in your system for encountering & learning from God-at-work being also present in our physical, emotional, & intellectual interactions.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 4:37pm

Forrest. I am under no illusion the message is could be better presented. But creativity is relative term. In my journey I, have met enough people who say after reading or hearing the message. "I know what you are saying and not because you are saying it but because I'm living it." I have likewise responded that same way when reading or hearing others. 

Certainly the message comes across as an idea to many. However, what is unique is that it speaks to another way beyond ideas instead of just presenting another idea. Some do not get beyond the idea and that is okay because it is not in my power to bestow the experience itself.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 5:09pm

I'm not saying "better presented." One thing I was taught as a child was that "if you understand it, you can say it another way." Many souls out there, many metaphors that speak to them -- or fail to.

Your experience doesn't need to match mine, because there's a very big ___ to be experienced. But there needs be more message than ~Just sit there feeling Presence; nothing else matters.

If Jesus meant anything like that, he sure didn't seem to leave it there.

True, he wasn't heaping up a load of external requirements to put between us and our Father. But he had a lot to say about what brings people closer and what keeps them estranged from God; and if his whole message had been "You can just sit there and enjoy the Kingdom", no one would have bothered to kill him.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 5:43pm

Forrest. Thanks you for sharing how you understand the words I've written. Your characterization of the meaning of the words I use does not match the experience I know. Your characterization of the words I use demonstrates my words mean something different to you than they do to me. I am far from saying "Just sit there feeling Presence, nothing else matters." I act in this world, Forrest, and at the same time know eternal life ... even while writing these words I know Presence within me. In writing these words, I have acted in and through Presemnce itself. It is not that you sit there doing nothing. It is that in whatever you do you do in Presence itself as Guide and not outwad forms.  I appreciative your thoughts, and James too, they are helpful. I hope you will continue in the future.

Comment by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 6, 2015 at 11:02pm

I'm trying to get a handle on your message but have not been successful.  I was told once the way to eat an elephant was with small bites.  Discussing being in God's presence might be an elephant that has to be served in very small portions.


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