Comment by Paul A. Smith on 11th mo. 29, 2010 at 2:47pm

At a gathering of Friends for worship yesterday evening, I was reminded that once, while I was silently asking God for guidance on how to speak to my young son about equality in the sight of God, a girl about my son's age stood up and said "I learned this week that God does not have grandchildren." That was exactly the guidance I needed. I do not believe the juxtaposition of my request and the girls' response were accidental. Was she experienced? No. Did her testimony have less effect because she was inexperienced? No. Could I have missed the importance of her message to my relationship with my son if I had dismissed her as having nothing valuable to contribute because she had never spoken from the silence before? Certainly. Who would have been responsible for my failing to understand the message because it was delivered by a little girl? Me. Maybe I'm being harsh, but it seems to me that the listener/enquirer bears a greater burden for being attentive to God, than does the speaker for following unwritten and merely traditional rules for trying to follow God's promptings to speak.

Comment by Steven Davison on 11th mo. 30, 2010 at 7:59am

Thanks for your post, Kevin. I suspect that the real difference between vocal ministers is not really between experienced and inexperienced, but between Friends who feel that they "speak for God," as you put it, when they rise in meeting, and those either imagine some other source for their speaking or haven't really reflected on the matter. This is the difference, I think, between "speaking in meeting" and "vocal ministry," between feeling a responsibility for faithfulness to a divine leading or even, for the frequent minister, a divine calling, and feeling a responsibility for bringing to the meeting heartfelt messages.

The difference manifests itself most clearly in one's relationship to eldership. The minister who feels called by God carries a heavy burden and feels the weight; he or she welcomes the spirit-led attention and support, even correction, of an elder, knowing that they will at times "step through the traces." One who speaks in meeting from their own heart and experience may experience eldering as a personal commentary on their heart and experience.

Most meetings I know do not understand this distinction and are therefore uncomfortable with the role of discipline. They will step in when things really get out of hand sometimes, but proactive eldership of ministers as called servants of God needing support and oversight is hard to even conceive, let alone do. In fact, I think many Friends find the idea of "speaking for God" to be presumptuous, even dangerous.

Of course, this approach to ministry begs the question of "God": who or what are we talking about? But that's another topic.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 11th mo. 30, 2010 at 8:17am

Paul,

You and I are not in disagreement here, even a little. There should not be unwritten rules placed upon the speaker and the burden should be instead on the listener, but every Meeting is different and worship dysfunction has many permutations.

Comment by Paul A. Smith on 11th mo. 30, 2010 at 12:37pm

Thank you Friend Kevin.

Comment by Richard B. Miller on 11th mo. 30, 2010 at 2:03pm

I agree with your discomfort over the use of "inexperienced" in this context. Experience is valuable but ultimately vocal ministry is a gift that can be developed, it is not a set of practices or customs to learn. Clever people can learn to watch their language and avoid speaking too often etc. but even when they follow such customs they are merely "speaking in meeting" and not offering genuine vocal ministry. The point is not to sound as if what you have to say comes from God. The point is to speak only if it does come from God. As a recorded elder in my meeting I can say that those who have a gift of vocal ministry tend to welcome eldering or mentoring as we might want to call it in modern language. Those without a genuine gift of vocal ministry are more resistent to any guidance and this is what really makes eldering hard.

Comment by Paul A. Smith on 11th mo. 30, 2010 at 4:09pm

At the end of this month, I will have been an elder for 14 years, including six years as presiding clerk. Like the previous commenters, I welcome eldering. I don't always get useful feedback from myself. I accept guidance and correction from whoever is prompted to speak to me. I have even gotten valuable guidance from a young know-it-all who thought he was scoring points by being critical. I haven't yet forgotten that I was also a genius when I was a young man. Unfortunately, my willingness to serve as an elder and clerk seems to have given me an aura of status that exists only in the minds of those who treat me as if I were above reproach. How well do I know that I stand on feet of clay. The constructive guidance that is the end result of good eldering is part of being our brothers' and sisters' keepers. I view eldering as one of the ways that we mutually support each other in our communal efforts to walk in the Light.

Comment by Ami Redmond on 12th mo. 6, 2010 at 9:21am

Hello, Friends. I am new to this community, and this is my first comment, so hopefully that speaks to how interesting I found this post!

I am part of a Monthly Meeting under the care of New York Yearly Meeting, and in that Faith & Practice there is an interesting clause following a similar guidance for "experienced" speakers. The paragraph in whole reads:

"Vocal ministry in the meeting for worship should arise from
inward prompting, an experience that may come at times to all
earnest worshippers. Ministers who can speak at length and
maintain a genuine spirit of prophecy are rare and appreciated,
but the experienced speaker should be watchful not to speak too
often or at undue length. A simple thought, briefly expressed
by a timid speaker, may be the message most needed; the shy
worshipper is encouraged to speak, however haltingly."

That certainly gave me some confidence when I first felt a prompting at Meeting. Also, like Mr. Camp, I am also fortunate to be part of a small Meeting, whose members appear to agree with Mr. Smith (as do I!) that some work needs to be done within the listener, and then even "inexperienced" or "timid...shy...halting..." ministry can be a powerful message from the Divine.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 12th mo. 6, 2010 at 9:38am

Dear Ms. Redmond,

You may refer to me as Kevin, if you wish. :)

I actually am no longer part of a small Meeting, though that is where I became Convinced and began delivering vocal ministry. That Meeting was largely silent and I was often the only Friend who felt led to share. Where I am a member now is at the completely opposite end of the spectrum, a very large Meeting which is quite vocal.

I find that New York Yearly Meeting's approach and language suits my sensibilities best. Sometimes where there have been issues with messages being problematic and contentious during First Day, the automatic impulse is to be a little punitive. And I've often believed that if one seeks a solution to the problem, one should confront the cause, rather than the effect(s).

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