Comment by Raye on 1st mo. 20, 2011 at 12:18pm

P.S.  I use the term "station i.d." because I have written a related post (or three) before.  Since I keep coming back to this, it seemed similar to top of the hour radio station i.d.'s.  We could also call it a broken record. (c;

Comment by Raye on 1st mo. 20, 2011 at 12:20pm

Anyone know where the term "broken record" came from? (aside from us older folks)

Comment by Micah Bales on 1st mo. 20, 2011 at 1:05pm

Hi Raye,

 

I guess I personally feel that the Quaker faith is bigger than the beliefs of individual Friends or even Meetings, and I think it can be legitimate to say that "Quakers believe..." in the same way that it is possible to outline the basic tenants of Christianity in general.

 

I do agree, though, that we should be careful not to conflate our own idiosyncratic beliefs with the orthodoxy of the Church. I guess it helps if we can stay humble - focused on Christ, not on ourselves.

 

Micah

Comment by Isabel Penraeth on 1st mo. 20, 2011 at 2:01pm

I have been feeling the need to append my "branch" to discussions of Quakerism where I am speaking to the specific practices and experiences of that branch. I know that I can be troubled by someone, particularly professional someones being paid money to express themselves in writing, who talk about Quakerism this and Quakerism when they are specifically describing the practice and experience of a particular branch, some practices and experience and language which do not translate across branches and end up being offensive to me. When I am feeling particularly unloving, it can feel they are trying to "steal" Quakerism or deny the existence of the other branches and their language, experience and practices. I can imagine someone would feel the same about what I write about Quakerism, if coming from a different perspective, and so I have started being more precise, in my own way, as thee suggests. I have attempted posts on this thought in the past but never got one to completion. Thanks, Raye, for echoing thy similar concern.

Comment by Raye on 1st mo. 20, 2011 at 5:04pm

Micah, I agree that staying humble and focused on Christ and not ourselves is the way to go, always.  I am not so sure that my experience, hearing from several Friends with a variety of understandings, would make me comfortable finishing that "Quakers believe" sentence with anything specific to Friends.  For example, Quakers believe in doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, is probably pretty safe for accuracy.  But I don't think it is a distinguishing characteristic.

 

Isabel, sometimes it has felt awkward to me (and I acknowledge I have probably placed others in that position) to hear someone explaining, incorrectly, to a third party, what it is that I do and believe based on my being a Friend. 

 

Comment by Marty Calliham on 1st mo. 21, 2011 at 12:29pm

This is really helpful; thanks Raye. 

I have had a similar concern because I've been shown to be very careful not to begin statements with, "The most important thing is..." or "What God really wants of us is ..."  What would follow this type of phrase would have to be very carefully discerned.  I cannot now say that I know, really know, what is most important, or what God wants most for us as a people.  (My sense is that it is to love God, neighbor, and enemy, and to do and be all that that implies.  But in the past I didn't always have this sense.)  So, my conclusion is similar to yours, that it is better to say, "My experience is ..." or "God's message to me is ..." or some other qualifying phrase.  Then others may test it to discern the truth as God reveals it to them.

Comment by Raye on 1st mo. 21, 2011 at 3:41pm

It just occurred to me that "Station I.D." is a helpful concept in a different way than I had originally meant it.

 

Station I.D. is required at the top of the hour to let people know who they are listening to.  So, adding some kind of station i.d., some indication of who I am and what my experience has been, is likely to be helpful to someone who doesn't know me well.  Of course, there are always situations in which a phrase I use is (without my prior knowledge) a "hot button," that prevents another from clearly hearing what I say or write.

 

Marty, Paul, thanks for what you have contributed here.  You have expanded on my initial concern, and that has been helpful for me.

 

Comment by Kevin Camp on 1st mo. 21, 2011 at 10:03pm

I recognize that ours is a mystical faith wherein the word of God speaks different ways at different times to different people.  But I also recognize that if we didn't have similar things in common, we would not feel the need to gather together.  Along those lines, surely there are several similar beliefs one can mention when asked ?

 

Discussions with those who are not Friends often proves problematic because they expect to hear a crisp litany of that which is believed and that which is not.  So I can be less specific, but it often comes across as evasive or mealy-mouthed.  I don't mind bordering on stating specifics for the "Quakers believe" query because otherwise, one might not get the point across adequately.   

Comment by Raye on 1st mo. 22, 2011 at 9:12am

Dear Kevin,

Thanks for the comment, it is a good question.  Since text omits so much information about tone, I would like to ask something very gently and respectfully.   Do you or other participants have an example of a "Quakers believe" or "Quakers do" sentence that encompasses the beliefs and practices of all Friends - and if possible, just Friends - worldwide?

 

This may bring us into sensitive territory. I am not trying to set anyone up for an incisive rebuttal (I have not been good at that, anyway, even when I tried  (c;  ).  What I am hoping to see is where I may have been missing something.  I still am convinced that I have, and a number of people do, make blanket statements based on limited experience, and that these statements occasionally have the effect of misinforming and alienating others.

 

Comment by Kevin Camp on 1st mo. 22, 2011 at 9:44am

I appreciate your respectful tone and hope to match it. 

Here is my reply.  Quakers believe in pacifism, being a historical peace church.  Quakers believe that theirs is a mystical religion where individual revelation between God and human is placed above orthodoxy.  Quakers believe that ritual is undesirable.  Quakers believe, and have always believed, in gender equality to a large degree.  Quakers often believe that there should be no special distinction between holidays and holy days, and that all days should be lived accordingly.     

 

Quakers do frequently feel strongly led towards issues of social justice.  Quakers do believe in a Testimony of Simplicity, which shows itself in the plainess of their Meetinghouses and often their churches.   

 

Here are a few I'm not stating these to contradict what you say, but sometimes one can unintentionally use blanket statements to point out other blanket statements.  I think one of our failings at times is that we are so individualistic in what we believe that we lack a communal means of self-identification.

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