Comment by Martin Kelley on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 4:19pm

Hi Kevin: There's rebellion and then there's rebellion, if you will. Fancy undergarments might mean any sorts of thing. And plain peoples have all sorts of different rules and interpretations of them. The Amish & plain Mennonites have more of a sense of uniform than Friends ever did; perhaps what goes on underneath the dress isn't as important.

For us Friends, the purpose of plainness was always supposed to be a reminder of a changed heart that lived in the humbleness of Christ. To be plain on the outside but Victoria Secret underneath is a kind of deception. We're all wonderfully complex and prone to inconsistencies, of course and I would never judge anyone based on sight alone--as Margaret Fell warned us, that's a silly poor gospel. But lingerie-wearing plain people does suggest a divided heart.

You might find Thomas Clarkson's explanations interesting. He was a Anglican around 1800 who got to know Friends and wrote a behind-the-scenes account called "A Portraiture of Quakerism." We have various excerpts of it collected in the QuakerQuaker Library, which includes a document Isabel "Plain Jane" Penraeth put together of Clarkson's talk of dress (PDF). Here's a portion (page 10 of the download) where Clarkson explains why Friends of the time considered it a warning sign when young Friends rebelled from plain dress:

Secondly, because any such deviation in their youth is considered to shew, in some measure, a deviation from simplicity of heart. It bespeaks the beginning of an unstable mind. It shews there must have been some improper motive for the change. Hence it argues a weakness in the deviating persons, and points them out as objects to be strengthened by wholesome admonition.

Thirdly, because changes, made without reasonable motives, would lead, if not watched and checked, to other still greater changes, and because an uninterrupted succession of such changes would bring the minds of their youth under the most imperious despotisms, the despotism of fashion; in consequence of which they would cleave to the morality of the world instead of the morality of the gospel.

In other parts he explains that these cautions are built on experience: the first outward sign of a young Friend's turning from our Society was often a rebellion in clothes, just as the first outward sign of a fledgling minister was often a recommitment to plainness. If it were only about clothes no one would care very much. But experience showed them this was often a warning sign--a kind of significant deviation. I've called this model of basing testimonies on observation of the community the "Wiki approach." I wonder what we'd see as the "significant deviation" of our modern testimonies. Maybe it'd be signing up for the Marines or getting super-involved in a more-gruesome video game.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 5:12pm

That's really interesting, Martin. I was largely basing my own opinion on what the Friend thought. The visual image was so strange to these eyes that I wasn't really sure how to make sense of it. Now I have a fuller picture.

Comment by Anne Littlebird on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 6:45pm

Leave it to men to try to figure out the whys of women's undergarment choices. Too funny.

I apparently have a rebellion I did not even know about. 3 years ago I sold my car for a number of reasons and mainly get by on bicycle or walking. About a year into this I realized that there was one thing I really missed doing but it was 30 away and I was not riding my bike that far. So I got a used motorcycle. Everyday when I get to work I change out of bicycle/motorcycle clothes, freshen up and get dressed in long skirt and blouse or a dress. At the end of the day I transform back into riding gear and head home.

Apparently it is in my employee file that there are people I work with that have a problem with the fact I ride motorcycle. Why? I have no idea. And it doesn't belong in my file. I am always early, have never missed work and have twice been the only person at work because the weather was too inclement for other people to get there. The motorcycle is a tool - nothing more. But it is perceived as a major rebellion on my part. I should be driving a nice car and my boss even said so. Here I am flying outside of THEIR comfort zone.

I did however get a wonderful compliment the other day when filling up the gas tank. Another motorcycle rider got off his bike - he was definitely in a gang as I could see his patches - walked up and said that it was lovely to see a woman being feminine and modest by wearing a prayer cap. Amish? No Quaker. Well it suits you little lady, ride safe.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 6:51pm

Dear Anne.

Thank you for sharing. I for one hope for the day that men aren't clueless about such matters. It's the reason I do the Feminist work I do. In fact, the reason I asked these questions and posted this entry was in the hopes of receiving feedback exactly like yours.

I encourage others to share as they are so led. We are all enriched in the process.

Comment by Anne Littlebird on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 8:12pm

I will admit to buying some underthings in VS. I am not comfortable in there but a few years ago the department store where I had always bought my unmentionables went to 'average' sizing. If you were smaller than the average you were out of luck and had to special order your items. I was stunned. Five stores later I was still without a purchase. VS was the last resort - and I found what I needed. There ARE plain serviceable items in VS with no frills or lace. Hard to believe I know from the catalogs and I will bet the ads on TV ( i don't have a TV so I'm not sure they have ads).

The Mennonite women might have been on the same quest. Women have a much harder time getting clothing than men. And if you are small you might be told to try the children's department.

My ex created a scene in VS one time when a 12 year old girl convinced her mom to buy her a red lace teddy thing that was way over the top. He let fly - he works with at risk kids - and the mom came to realize how inappropriate it was and put it back. Her daughter wasn't happy with him. But he got a standing ovation from the other women there. I never took him back however. Which is good, seeing that there might be Mennonite women buying lingerie and I'm not sure how he'd react. He is a supporter of plain dress.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 8:31pm

Victoria's Secret periodically airs television ads, but yes, the wares peddled certainly are not plain or without frills. So yes, it's news to me that the company would sell anything that is not so. Seems to almost defeat the purpose of the company.

It's interesting what you've suggested about the Mennonite women. I certainly didn't enter the store and ask them why in particular they were there! :) But I do certainly recall from conversations with female friends and girlfriends how difficult it is to find well-fitting clothing for women.

It occurs to me that I probably should have identified the age of these women. Both of them seemed to be in their early twenties. They certainly were adults. I, like you, am uncomfortable being in Victoria's Secret (I never knew that women can feel ill-at-ease there too) so I'm not sure how I'd react if I encountered plain dress women purchasing lingerie. I'd probably not even say a thing, regardless of whatever I thought about the matter.

However, very young teenagers purchasing lingerie at Victoria's Secret, plain dress or not, is a completely different topic altogether.

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 8, 2010 at 11:26pm

I'd say make no assumptions. I buy my underwear at specialty places and they are not cheap. Why? Fit.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 7th mo. 9, 2010 at 7:21am

Paula,

Yes, a helpful lesson I have learned over time is "never assume". Thank you for reminding me.

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 15, 2010 at 11:02am

Hey Kevin,

I saw a woman at the Walmart the other night. She looked to be Mennonite with her cape dress in Mennonite colors, but the dress was ankle length and her cap was black - stiff and close fitting, but black. Was she Mennonite? Of course I was dying to ask, but restrained myself.

Comment by Kevin Camp on 7th mo. 15, 2010 at 11:25am

Quite possibly, though I must admit I was only able to place the Mennonite women I encountered because of my plain dress F/friend. Should could have been German Baptist Brethren. I doubt Amish shop at Walmart, or do they?

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