Kirby Urner
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  • Portland, OR
  • United States
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  • Forrest Curo

Kirby Urner's Discussions

Self Acceptance: I, Robot

Started this discussion. Last reply by Kirby Urner on 7th day (Sat). 9 Replies

Do people realize their own freedom to not indulge in this or that negative emotion? Some habits become so ingrained, they're no longer up for questioning.The Jungians (James Hillman, Maurice Nicoll,…Continue

Orthodox vs Evangelical vs Protestant

Started this discussion. Last reply by Kirby Urner 7th month 9. 1 Reply

Wearing my anthropology hat, I'm tuning in recent haps in Christendom, chief among them, apparently, being the Bible Answer Man, a radio personality, affiliated with Christian Research Institute,…Continue

Copying Quakerism

Started this discussion. Last reply by Kirby Urner 3rd month 20. 1 Reply

I've come to see Quakerism as a role playing opportunity, where you get to work with other adults on a live business with a social conscience.Mostly we don't get those opportunities in our daily…Continue


Kirby Urner's Page

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Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"Enlightenment:  sufficiently satisfied with one's own [ suffering ] (having it be OK) to have room to concern oneself with the [ suffering ] of others (compassion). [ suffering ] == [ spiritual journey ]  (feel free to swap one for…"
7th day (Sat)
Keith Saylor replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"I am immanent Presence and immanent Presence is in me. I do not think about it and draw outward constructs to contain it ... I live the Life itself in itself in all things."
6th day (Fri)
Forrest Curo replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"To the extent that human thinking&behavior makes coherent sense, ie that what people think, feel and do is explainable in terms of desires and intentions, we're going to approximate a mechanical model. To the extent that it's random,…"
6th day (Fri)
Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"I take my own inward and outward looks, as an observer, wonder about the difference, twixt inward and outward. One of my favorite teachers was Ludwig Wittgenstein, to the point of a college thesis and, these days, proud custodianship of over forty…"
6th day (Fri)
Forrest Curo replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"Well, they'll tell you you're a this, or a that, a beast or a robot or a war between Good and Evil, an uppity slave or the master of your life -- and since it's all about you, in theory, it could get fascinating. Diagnosed at…"
6th day (Fri)
Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"I tend to flit from writer to writer, teacher to teacher, like a bee.  Five models in five days would be my idea of a fun time... like a tourist.Sounds superficial I'm sure.  I like this book, Maps of the Mind.  Could use a lot…"
6th day (Fri)
Forrest Curo replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"Well, if you've already picked the model of self you're going to assume, I would still say "Don't assume any model; observe!" -- but I wouldn't expect to change your mind!"
6th day (Fri)
Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"Although somewhat long, this web page samples how Maurice Nicoll used "negative emotion" in his writings: (some Friends might be interested) I don't look for any universal…"
6th day (Fri)
Forrest Curo replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Self Acceptance: I, Robot'
"Emotions, whether you like them or not, are just what they happen to be. They don't really come in "positive" or "negative" flavors -- just "liked" or "disliked" -- with no more choice of whether to…"
6th day (Fri)
Kirby Urner posted a discussion

Self Acceptance: I, Robot

Do people realize their own freedom to not indulge in this or that negative emotion? Some habits become so ingrained, they're no longer up for questioning.The Jungians (James Hillman, Maurice Nicoll, Arnie Mindell...) speak of "soulmaking" as a life-long  process, vis-a-vis which we sometimes have that "starting over" experience, of being reborn.Many testify to the reality of their own rebirth(s), whether or not they choose a Christian vocabulary or know anything about Jesus.Query:  do I know…See More
6th day (Fri)
Kirby Urner replied to Forrest Curo's discussion 'It Really is About Love'
"The seven deadly sins are so deadly precisely because we love to indulge in them so much. The wages of over-eating are indeed all the pains of morbid obesity.  Yet eating may seem such a comfort and don't we feel more loved when taken care…"
5th day (Thu)
Kirby Urner replied to Sarah Kirby's discussion '"A Good Quaker is Hard To Find"'
"I see Quakers collectively as mostly bumbling, well-intentioned, but somewhat clueless. What hardens a Friend in a good way, in the sense of developing discipline, is to wear that Quaker badge (which raises expectations) and then take on real…"
7th month 26
Kirby Urner commented on Earlham School of Religion's blog post 'Preparing for war: Are we ready?'
"One reason Quakers are no longer strong in business, compared to late 1700s (a time of peak influence in the private sector), is it's hard to work in the US without being a part of its military-infotainment complex. Developing sprawling…"
7th month 26
Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'Improving Living Conditions'
"Role model Quaker:  Kenneth Boulding, a contributor to the emerging field of GST (General Systems Theory). Joe Havens was another contributor, under the heading of Quaker Economics, predated publication of Quakernomics, one of the best books on…"
7th month 17
Kirby Urner posted a discussion

Improving Living Conditions

Some reasons for optimism:"Be patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations, wherever you go, so that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people, and to them. Then you will come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in every one. Thereby you can be a blessing in them and…See More
7th month 17
Kirby Urner replied to Kirby Urner's discussion 'My Role Model Quakers'
"If looking for some more meaningful discussion... I'm not sure the word "saint" applies but I'm happy to acknowledgeRichard Stallman as a latter day bodhisattva.   Not a Quaker though,that I know of.  Doesn't…"
7th month 14

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A Quaker Men's Group

Posted on 3rd mo. 13, 2017 at 1:00pm 0 Comments

I've been a stalwart of this Men's Group for many years now, although I was not present at its inception.

When I moved back to Portland and sought friendship, twas the regional Gathering of Western Young Friends to which I felt attracted. Such beautiful people (Pan, Kate...). I still think so.

However by now, in my late fifties, versus late…

On Racism Again

Posted on 2nd mo. 3, 2017 at 6:03pm 0 Comments

:: stand-up philosophy by Wes Cecil ::

What I wrote on Facebook:

Really enjoyed this, because he's doing philosophy and standup comedy at the same time. Gets my…

War Studies

Posted on 1st mo. 16, 2017 at 3:16pm 0 Comments


That famous folk song that goes "ain't gonna study war no more" seems clearly in the back of the mind of our writer, Friend Wolf Mendl, as he opens with a defense: "Why would a Quaker, a subclass of Pacifist, study and/or play war games?"  Obviously, in order to end…

13th (movie review)

Posted on 1st mo. 8, 2017 at 1:30pm 2 Comments

Friends gathered at the Stark Street meetinghouse for this public-invited showing of 13th, a widely distributed, award-winning documentary about the ongoing cultural and civil war in North America.

Although Lincoln declared the slaves free, an opening shot in his war to preserve the Union, the South was not on board with providing them with full human rights overnight.  Women couldn't vote yet either.  A system of apartheid…


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At 11:59pm on 3rd mo. 2, 2016, Keith Saylor said…

Hello Kirby,

While I agree with your sentiment to it is not about either/or.

For me, it is an issue of just being honest about the reality. There just are many people, by their own admission and not my characterization, whose conscious is anchored in and whose conscience is informed by outward forms generally speaking. These people make up the majority of people on this earth. There is also a smaller number of people on this earth whose conscious, generally speaking, is anchored in and whose conscience, generally speaking,  is informed by direct and unmediated inherent self-existence or Presence itself in itself without regard to outward practices, institutions, teachers, leaders, theologies, religions, etc. 

The very nature of the former is to break up into various outward "brands," as you say, while the later has no real issue with outward branding because they do not participate in that way of existence. They profess no outward marks, forms, or practices by which they themselves or others may know them as under the pale of direct and unmediated Presence itself in itself. It is the establishing of outward forms that nurture the manifestation of various brands. Those early Quakers, who followed Foxonian innovation, and eventually turned back again to established outward ways, practices, and traditions, nurtured the manifestation of the various brands that now make up the Quakerism of today that is anchored in and informed by outward forms. 

There has been those from the beginnings of the Children of Light, as there are today, who are not  stakeholders in the establishment and perpetuation of any outward religion, practice, tradition, politic, economy, institutions, etc. so that there is no occasion for branding or disunity amongst those gathered into and governed by direct and unmediated Spirit itself in itself.

Anarchy is the lack of governance. The Children of Light whose conscious is anchored in and whose conscience is informed by Presence know the direct and unmediated governance of the same Presence itself in itself. 

Thank you, Keith

At 9:22am on 3rd mo. 2, 2016, Keith Saylor said…

Hello Kirby,

Recently you wrote:

I'm a Wittgenstein student and don't buy that names point to things, even in the simple case. Words are tools and their use defines them, not some mysterious "pointing". "Language on the one hand, real object on the other" -- that's a simplification that only gets one entangled in confusions.

Mathematics is not metaphorical if it's not trying to be "about" anything beyond itself. Chess, the game, is not really a "metaphor" for a war either, or if it is, it's not a war like we've ever seen. Games have their own integrity. They don't need to be "metaphoric".

Note: Santa and Satan differ only by letter arrangement, like Dog and God.

Your words are compelling and I've spent much time with them. I appreciate your observation that "Games have their own integrity" and I agree. In the same way that equations, theologies, institutions, languages, etc. have their own integrity. The physical world has its own integrity. Ecosystems have their own integrity. Economies have their own integrity. Church frameworks have their own integrity. Idols or icons and similitudes have their own integrity. An idol certainly does not need to point to anything beyond itself and often does not. It has its own integrity. This is the reality of things for many people on this earth and I affirm the truth of it.

With that said, there are others on this earth who re-create (for example, participate in gaming or worship) in the very activity of living itself so that we do not engage in setting aside outward frameworks within which we go about re-creating or worshipping for that matter. While we acknowledge the existence of outward gaming and worship frameworks or platforms, we may not participate in them because we live in the activity of re-creating or worshipping itself in itself. Living in the activity of re-creating or worshipping in all moments and circumstance in daily life makes entering into an outwardly established gaming, economic, religious, worship, and political, platforms or frameworks unnecessary. As with many of the founding Quakers (not all), we do not participate in the establishment or setting aside of outward religious institutions and instrumentalities and practices because those outward forms are not relevant to our experience which is established Itself in itself. We participate in the activity of worship and re-creating in every moment of our lives. Our conscious is not anchored in and our conscience is not informed by outward gaming or worshipping frameworks. In the same way,  we do not set aside or participate holy-days because a conscious anchored in and a conscious informed in the activity of re-creating or worshipping itself in itself knows a life that is holy in all moments and circumstances. It is just not necessary to set aside outward special days and times of holiness or celebration; even as we acknowledge the "integrity" of those outward holy-days for many people even when those holy-days and the language of those holy-days are not metaphoric in any way.

Thanks you for your words.


At 6:03pm on 12th mo. 10, 2015, Forrest Curo said…

Yeah, it's a little backasswards how this works -- but then we don't end up with all the liter in the same place. I really agree about The Exam; I get Spot Quizzes instead. (I don't always like the way these turn out!)

I did a poem once abt:

'Practice the corpse pose;it will be on The Exam'

but then so are sunsets.

The trouble with "How effective were you as an activist?" is that Jesus would have flunked that one. So maybe it's not such a good question. At best (unless you died of being thumped by a cop) you'd still face a further question: "Yes, but what have you done for Me lately?"

At 5:09pm on 12th mo. 10, 2015, Forrest Curo said…

I'm liking your last rant over on Keith's piece (where it really is slightly off-topic, alas!)

But (begging the question of whether there is such a thing) I really can't see "How effective were you as an activist?" being among the questions on The Exam.


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