Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Barbara Smith on 6th mo. 19, 2012 at 12:36pm

Labels attempt to define what the group has in common, how they wish to be perceived by those outside the group, and what to expect when you wish to be a part of the group. They have a negative connotation of being excluding - defining a boundary between us and them. However, eliminating the label, or pretending it doesn't exist doesn't help either. I belong to a non-denominational fellowship that deliberately has not defined any statements of beliefs so as not to exclude anyone. The trouble is that it has caused resentment over assumptions and a feeling of uncertainty when attempting to communicate without being sure of where people are coming from. This in turn has caused folks to leave and seek out more well-defined churches! So much for inclusivity.

Just a thought.
Barb

Permalink Reply by Liz Opp on 1st mo. 18, 2013 at 9:42pm

I am coming to this conversation some 6-7 months after it has wound down. But this thought kept rising for me:

I have visited and worshiped with a number of Friends meeting over the years. In doing so, I have an increased experience-based understanding of who/how Conservative and Liberal Friends are.

Just as each of us would be hard-pressed to explain who/how our own families are--beyond the names, ages, etc of relatives--we cannot easily capture or name the how's of these "Quaker relatives."

There are subtle and not-so-subtle differences that become more clear over time--around the place of Scripture; the recognition of Authority; the role of the corporate body and of the individual; etc. I should say, these are some areas in which I have a felt-sense of differences....

Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 1st mo. 31, 2013 at 2:47pm

Hello, Barbara!

I have been associated as a "revolving door" member/ex-member with Conservative Friends (Ohio variety) for over forty years.  And my wife was born into Iowa Yearly Meeting (Conservative).  I note these things not to boast, but to indicate that I speak from considerable experience.

Calling oneself a Conservative Friend invokes lots of tradition and institutional baggage; some of it is good, but some is also very much a hindrance.  The old rituals of worship among traditional Friends are IMHO deeply spiritual, and show the value in the Conservative tradition; they are hardly ever practiced now, even by those who consider themselves to be "traditionalists".   "Birthright membership" is a case in point of the latter; it has done much to destroy the integrity of Conservative Friends as a religious community.

To call oneself as a Christian Friend, or an orthodox Friend, identifies one with the Christian tradition(s) of Friends without invoking much of the institutional baggage of Conservative Friends, or Evangelical Friends for that matter.This is where I would "hang my hat"!

Are you aware of the "Primitive Friends'" presence in the Finger Lakes region during the 19th and early 20th Centuries?  Persis Hallock, Edward and Marianne Woods, and Hepsibeth Hussey  were members of the Primitive Friends in the Poplar Ridge area.  I am surprised at how little information about this group seems to be on the Internet.  For pictures, see http://www.quakerjane.com/spirit.friends/plain_dress-plainquakersto...

 

 

Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 2nd mo. 1, 2013 at 12:09am

It's interesting that Paul and his fellow prophets were first called Christians at Antioch not for what they taught or believed or wore but because they were seen by the people of Antioch as "little" Christs.

Permalink Reply by Faye M. Chapman on 2nd mo. 27, 2013 at 5:08pm

Hi Barb,

I hesitate to add another "label" to the mixture. The term neo-conservative has been used to describe some who have found their way back to the faith and practices of early Friends. I first heard it used by Bill Taber. Friends World Committee on Consultation has published the testimony of Bill and Fran about their experiences of growing up in the conservative tradition. It can be found on the FWCC site under the Wider Quaker Fellowship publications. My experience as a Friend has been among the "neo"conservatives. I think I would be correct to describe the new OYM Rockingham Quarterly Meeting as mostly neo conservative. I believe OYM to be largely Christo-centric. Not all of us are best described as neo conservative but that seems to be the area of growth among us. I know this tacit doesn't clear up the usage of conservative/liberal for thee. It would be of some interest to hear what thee and others think about the impact of this group of convinced Friends both on OYM and in the wider Quaker world.

Permalink Reply by Barbara Smith on 2nd mo. 28, 2013 at 5:54pm

Faye - Are you asking what the impact of "neo" conservatives is? I guess that is what I am trying to figure out. What was, and still is, confusing to those new to this world of liberal versus conservative Friends is that there is considerable overlap in any given meeting, but it also seems that the labels have caused much divisiveness and confusion as those who might be conservative in the Liberal meetings, and those who are liberal in the Conservative meetings don't see themselves as similar, if that makes sense. And those on the outside looking in for the first time are totally confused! Maybe this is not uncommon in Christian denominations, for example all the divisions in the Lutheran church, but they have specific names for the branches and they function as different bodies. Whereas among Friends there is no such thing as a Conservative organization, or a Liberal organization, it is just a matter of self-definition, or what the other groups call you. When I was in a liberal meeting we never referred to ourselves as such, we were just Quakers. It seems the conservatives are more aware of themselves as a body, maybe they are in the minority among Friends.

To answer your question though, I think the neo conservatives play a crucial role in holding on to and carrying the torch of the thinking and practises of the Early Quakers. I feel they are carrying the torch, or maybe keeping the flame alive, that holds the essence of the spiritual discoveries of Early Friends - discoveries about the simple life of obedience to the Spirit that have become confused and garbled in the intervening centuries of religious movements. It seems very important to me for OYM to keep protecting and fanning that little flame, even though it seems small and not well appreciated, and definitely not the most popular version of Christianity.  I see it as similar to the need for us as humans to not forget how to do various things for ourselves, like how to live without electricity, as some day we may need to go back to those skills. A bit different, as we as humans need to re-discover the Holy Spirit NOW, not at some time in the future, but the wider Christian world may not recognize that - ever.

Good questions.

Barb

Permalink Reply by Barbara Smith on 2nd mo. 28, 2013 at 9:06pm

Faye - I was not happy with my answer to your question so I will try again. Perhaps the question is too broad for a single answer. But I can tell you instead what drew me to the neo conservatives. For me they hold the key to who Jesus Christ actually is and was and are truly faithful to the fact that Christ has come to teach His people Himself. They expect to be led by Christ daily and in all details of their lives in very real ways. They expect to have real communication with Christ. They expect to be born again and to be re-made by Christ in this lifetime. They understand the reality of Satan. They expect and teach submission and obedience and fear of God. They uniquely bring together this Living knowledge of Christ with the silent waiting worship: worship that is in Spirit and in Truth. Other branches of Quakerism have parts of this picture but it is the conservatives, and really the neo conservatives, that I feel are keeping it all alive together. This is the Truth our modern world needs to know.

Your Ffriend,

Barb

Permalink Reply by Faye M. Chapman on 3rd mo. 2, 2013 at 12:55pm

Barb,

I appreciate thy posts.  I expect there are a number of Friends who ponder the question of identifying a community in which to hang their bonnets as they seek to build up the faith of the living Christ.  Like thee, I have looked at the names that have been associated with various practices.  Also, like thee, it bothers me that "liberal and conservative" have definitions applied by worldly groups to other venues. Picking out another label (like "neo") to tack on to the same words doesn't quite fit the need.

Perhaps the "names" are less important than the characteristics of the members of the group.  It has helped me to look at the fruits of the group.  Galatians 5:22 puts it this way: "The harvest of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, fidelity, gentleness and self-control." Most of all, I think we must look for Godly love (agape) wherein we are identified as people who surround ourselves and all others with "all that is true, all that is noble, all that is just and pure, all that is lovable and gracious, whatever is excellent and admirable." (Philippians 4:8)

It has been my experience that "authentic" Christ driven behavior in individuals and groups will be subjected to attacks by Satan.  The only power sufficient to deal with that comes through His living in us and within our groups.  It is that Power spoken of in 1 Corinthians: 13.  Surrounding by, and availing ourselves of the faith, hope and love described in that chapter, we can help build up the Kingdom..  We can welcome any and all who yearn to be "in" the light of Jesus.  We are not motivated by fear or led to search for human individual power.  Finding the best community to surround oneself with is a worthy goal.  God helps with this.

In the end, I believe that we are called more to humility and adoration of God and building each other up in the faith rather than getting caught up with judgment of some who do not hang their broad brims and bonnets on the same pegs that we choose.  We quote various F/friends who have walked joyfully in the Light of Christ. Some are Quakers...some are ancient fathers and mothers of Israel. It seems good that we have recognized these obedient ones, but more importantly, we are called to the POWER that they have found and witnessed to. We are not just liberal, conservative, neo, or primitive, etc, but we, like Paul, must learn to live, not as our human selves alone, but as Christ who is living in us and in our gatherings.  It is the way Christ "draws" His unto Himself. Without that we miss the mark.

I think this message may sound too much like Quakerese, but so I am.

Thy friend,

Faye

Barbara Smith said:

Faye - I was not happy with my answer to your question so I will try again. Perhaps the question is too broad for a single answer. But I can tell you instead what drew me to the neo conservatives. For me they hold the key to who Jesus Christ actually is and was and are truly faithful to the fact that Christ has come to teach His people Himself. They expect to be led by Christ daily and in all details of their lives in very real ways. They expect to have real communication with Christ. They expect to be born again and to be re-made by Christ in this lifetime. They understand the reality of Satan. They expect and teach submission and obedience and fear of God. They uniquely bring together this Living knowledge of Christ with the silent waiting worship: worship that is in Spirit and in Truth. Other branches of Quakerism have parts of this picture but it is the conservatives, and really the neo conservatives, that I feel are keeping it all alive together. This is the Truth our modern world needs to know.

Your Ffriend,

Barb

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