Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 6:46am

Hello again, Marianna!

You tell us that "love" is the ultimate standard for us, but you never tell us how you you determine what that means.  Without further specification, love is a very slippery concept.  I would hold up Jesus Christ as the ultimate embodiment of love and what it means for us.

I am curious about what meeting for worship means to you.  If we can't expect to be "moved" by a God who speaks to us and through us, what is meeting for worship about???

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Permalink Reply by Timothy Bruffy on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 8:59am

Amen.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Nugent on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 11:33am

Love is all.

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Permalink Reply by Adria Gulizia on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 12:09pm

Chris, I wonder if you can elaborate, in light of William's statement to Marianna:

You tell us that "love" is the ultimate standard for us, but you never tell us how you you determine what that means.  Without further specification, love is a very slippery concept.  I would hold up Jesus Christ as the ultimate embodiment of love and what it means for us.

Thanks for participating in the discussion!
Chris Nugent said:

Love is all.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 8:37pm

Love isn't really a slippery concept at all.  Jesus is love.  Love is laying down one's life for another.  The scriptures say that sometimes a person will lay down his life for a good man but Jesus/God laid down His life for us while we were still sinners.  It's all about love.  We are here to learn how to love.  God doesn't care how often we are right.  He caresabout how often we love.  Check out Mathew 25:31 to 46.  We just want to explain why it's impractical to love.  Jesus didn't molly coddle those he disagreed with and he didn't hem and haw about what was right or wrong.  But he did it because He loved us and He proved it by His death on the cross.  Trying to figure out how to love in the instant moment might be hard but if we seek God's wisdom about how to love anyone in particular at any particular time He will give it.  Check out Proverbs.  The problem is it often involves putting our own self interest aside.
 
Adria Gulizia said:

Chris, I wonder if you can elaborate, in light of William's statement to Marianna:

You tell us that "love" is the ultimate standard for us, but you never tell us how you you determine what that means.  Without further specification, love is a very slippery concept.  I would hold up Jesus Christ as the ultimate embodiment of love and what it means for us.

Thanks for participating in the discussion!
Chris Nugent said:

Love is all.

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Permalink Reply by David Nelson Seaman on 8th mo. 4, 2012 at 11:56pm

For those old enough to remember, the current Chic-fil-A debate resembles the same type of political media activism used back in the 1970's against Anita Byrant, who also held conservative religious views on marriage.    She was the spokesperson for something called the Florida Citrus Growers Association, was quite popular ( and well paid )  doing national advertisements for orange juice and promoting the state of Florida.   The political ruckus with Chic-fil-A brings us full circle back to orange juice, and whether or not anything is really gained in attempting to find common ground by using negative attack ads using a opponents religious views to obtain politically enacted zoning restrictions affecting a persons business.    Chic-fil-A has ended up selling more chicken sandwiches, and Florida Orange Juice remains a table standard in the homes of many Americans to this day.   Certainly, love is all, but the misuse of politics for punitive economic purposes is where this slippery slope is located, with both gay community and Christian business communities needing protection from political pandering.    The stated intended actions of the mayors listed by Adria makes me very nervous.   Thank you Adria, for your perceptive take on this issue.    

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Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 8th mo. 7, 2012 at 4:34pm

Dear Jeff,

 

You write that Cathy and "his company via its 'charitable arm' the Winshape Organisation  is pouring millions of dollars every year into organisations with an openly gay-hostile agenda." That would be truly worrisome if it were true. I clicked on the web site you provided and found the following groups listed with dollar amounts.

• Marriage & Family Foundation: $1,188,380
• Fellowship Of Christian Athletes: $480,000
• National Christian Foundation: $247,500
• New Mexico Christian Foundation: $54,000
• Exodus International: $1,000
• Family Research Council: $1,000
• Georgia Family Council: $2,500

Only one of these organizations focuses on gay issues- Exodus and it's considered fairly moderate with its leader recentlly speaking out against the notion of changing orientation.

The lion's share of the money goes to what "Equality Matters" identifies as  the Marriage and Family Foundation." I tried looking up the group on Google and found no such organization. There is a "Family Foundation" which is probably what they meant. It had the following description: "The mission of The Family Foundation is to strengthen families in Virginia by applying founding principles and faith to policy and culture. The organization seeks to establish through citizen advocacy and enactment of Virginia law a safe, prosperous and wholesome climate for families. All of its public policy decisions are based on the principles of life, marriage, parental authority, constitutional government and religious liberty." None of their recent news release even touched on gay issues. I hope, Jeff, your not suggesting that any one working to strengthen traditional marriage is anti-gay.

I find it troubling when an organization like "Equality Matters" does broad brush labeling of complex organizations with the label "anti gay" and others accept and repeat this charge widely.

I'm a history teacher, and it does remind me of a certain group that took a broad brush to the Jews and insistently labeled them as "anti-German."

Again, I think good people disagree about gay marriage and it's effect on family. I want to put in another plea for the community to test the various human witnesses to see what eventually answers "that of God within us" as a community.

blessings,

Herb

 

 
jeff said:

The remarks of Dan Cathy need to be taken in the context of the wider actions of his company. In this wider context I would be very hesitant to say this is about business man who 'calmly and tenderly expounds a view supported by the Bible' but rather a powerful wealthy company using its wealth to promote discrimination

His company via its 'charitable arm' the Winshape Organisation  is pouring millions of dollars every year into organisations with an openly gay-hostile agenda. In 201o nearly two million dollars and in 2011 over three million dollars went into these groups.

http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001

 This is indeed worrying for this Friend. Whatever one's views of Biblical teachings about marriage and same sex relationships I cannot accept that spending huge sums of money on groups which campaign against the rights of LGBT people is not sanctioned by any teachings of Jesus.

Let's imagine there was a company in the US which employed Jewish people, served Jewish people politely in its stores and claimed that it in no way discriminated against Jews.  But at the same time was giving money to anti-Semitic organisations.  Then let's say that local authorities said they would not give them local licences to trade in their jurisdictions. Would we say that the civil authorities should not act because it falls outside their remit?

In Friendship

Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 8th mo. 8, 2012 at 3:27pm

When I look at web sites on both sides of the culture divide, I see pretty much the same thing. Fallible human beings ministering out of fear, woundedness, tribal certainty, etc. I recommend a book... James Davidson Hunter's "Before the Shooting Begins." He has an interesting chapter where he analyzes the web sites and fund raising letters of both extremes- mirror images of eachother.

 

The person that I seek to emulate and follow once said, "judge not lest you be judged. Why do you point out the speck in your brother's eye and miss the plank in your own..." We are called to witness  not pronounce judgmental certainty. Whittier said it well... "breathe through the heats of our desire, thy coolness and thy balm, let sense be dumb, let flesh retire, breath through the earthquake, wind and fire thy still small voice of calm." It seems that humans of all potical stripes prefers to minister from the earthquake, wind and fire of human desire, anger, passion, and tribal allegience rather than redemptive love.

I lift up your friends who have been wounded and pray for healing.  These words have helped in my healing. "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR
YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

blessings,

Herb

 

 
jeff said:

Hi Herb

A couple of points

(1) The Family Foundation of Virigina (yes I think that is the group the article was referring too ) does have an anti gay agenda. For example on its website it lists one of its legislative victories as 

'Defeated the Inclusion of Sexual Orientation in Employment and Hate Crimes.'  How is this related to their stated aim of  a creating 'a safe, prosperous and wholesome climate for families?' 

Look at their own Blog and see how they actively campaign against gay rights such as same sex domestic partner health insurance etc...  They use expressions such as 'homosexual indoctrination' and  refer to homosexuality as 'a dangerous lifestyle'. They are a highly politicised group  not some benign defenders of healthy marriages. They are not just expressing opinions but actively campaigning against human rights!

(2)Exodus International is not in any sense of the word  'fairly moderate'  at least not in any sense that I use it. Exodus has brought misery and despair to  many thousands of LGBT people with its so called 'reparative therapy.' (It is now trying to distance itself from its past). It is changing its tack as it has come to realise that sexual orientation cannot be changed but it still characterises gay relationships as sinful and offers a 'way out'. Its website does not quite make it clear what that 'way out' is though in many cases it consists of encouraging gay men and women to enter into heterosexual marriage or complete celibacy.  Asa gay man neither of those prospects are particulalry appealing to me.

Its message however sugar coated is that a same sex loving relationship is wrong. Exodus, despite its shiny new image, continues to cause pain and confusion to many people struggling with their sexual identity. I know people who have been through the Exodus process and it is scary stuff. If you want to know what Exodus are all about then read this

http://www.truthwinsout.org/ministry-exodus-international/

I am not going to work through all the organisations listed but it is a similar story to those above. ...An often benign outer appearance with a very dark underbelly. Just look at their websites and with a little rooting around it is easy to see what they are about.

 I am pretty passionate about this because I have seen people really messed up by these folk and their kind! 

I am a UK citizen and thankfully the Ex Gay movement is virtually extinct here now. I only wish it had never come into being in the first place. I am in a Civil Partnership with my American partner and happily we are protected by law from harassment and discrimination, with equal pension, tax, housing and Social Security rights(and responsibilities). I want my American brothers and sisters to enjoy the same rights and the groups we are discussing are working to deny them.   

In Friendship

Jeff

Herb Lape said:

Dear Jeff,

 

You write that Cathy and "his company via its 'charitable arm' the Winshape Organisation  is pouring millions of dollars every year into organisations with an openly gay-hostile agenda." That would be truly worrisome if it were true. I clicked on the web site you provided and found the following groups listed with dollar amounts.

• Marriage & Family Foundation: $1,188,380
• Fellowship Of Christian Athletes: $480,000
• National Christian Foundation: $247,500
• New Mexico Christian Foundation: $54,000
• Exodus International: $1,000
• Family Research Council: $1,000
• Georgia Family Council: $2,500

Only one of these organizations focuses on gay issues- Exodus and it's considered fairly moderate with its leader recentlly speaking out against the notion of changing orientation.

The lion's share of the money goes to what "Equality Matters" identifies as  the Marriage and Family Foundation." I tried looking up the group on Google and found no such organization. There is a "Family Foundation" which is probably what they meant. It had the following description: "The mission of The Family Foundation is to strengthen families in Virginia by applying founding principles and faith to policy and culture. The organization seeks to establish through citizen advocacy and enactment of Virginia law a safe, prosperous and wholesome climate for families. All of its public policy decisions are based on the principles of life, marriage, parental authority, constitutional government and religious liberty." None of their recent news release even touched on gay issues. I hope, Jeff, your not suggesting that any one working to strengthen traditional marriage is anti-gay.

I find it troubling when an organization like "Equality Matters" does broad brush labeling of complex organizations with the label "anti gay" and others accept and repeat this charge widely.

I'm a history teacher, and it does remind me of a certain group that took a broad brush to the Jews and insistently labeled them as "anti-German."

Again, I think good people disagree about gay marriage and it's effect on family. I want to put in another plea for the community to test the various human witnesses to see what eventually answers "that of God within us" as a community.

blessings,

Herb

 

 
jeff said:

The remarks of Dan Cathy need to be taken in the context of the wider actions of his company. In this wider context I would be very hesitant to say this is about business man who 'calmly and tenderly expounds a view supported by the Bible' but rather a powerful wealthy company using its wealth to promote discrimination

His company via its 'charitable arm' the Winshape Organisation  is pouring millions of dollars every year into organisations with an openly gay-hostile agenda. In 201o nearly two million dollars and in 2011 over three million dollars went into these groups.

http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001

 This is indeed worrying for this Friend. Whatever one's views of Biblical teachings about marriage and same sex relationships I cannot accept that spending huge sums of money on groups which campaign against the rights of LGBT people is not sanctioned by any teachings of Jesus.

Let's imagine there was a company in the US which employed Jewish people, served Jewish people politely in its stores and claimed that it in no way discriminated against Jews.  But at the same time was giving money to anti-Semitic organisations.  Then let's say that local authorities said they would not give them local licences to trade in their jurisdictions. Would we say that the civil authorities should not act because it falls outside their remit?

In Friendship

Jeff

. 

 

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Permalink Reply by Adria Gulizia on 8th mo. 11, 2012 at 3:22am

I want to thank everyone for the comments so far! The level of courtesy and conviction has been wonderful to see! I am currently traveling, so I haven't been on that often, but it seems like the conversation has been going along swimmingly without me.

A few quick comments for Jeff:

Jeff, you suggest that we should take Dan Cathy's comments in the context of his donations as we evaluate reaction to them. I have to disagree. Presumably, the donations were made well before the comments. If the reaction were based on the donations, wouldn't they have come a long time ago? Or wouldn't some of the politicians have mentioned Dan Cathy's donations in their responses? I don't have any reason to believe that they even knew about his donations when they went on Facebook or Twitter or even NPR's Tell Me More with their reactions. This leaves us with politicians who are threatening to use their governmental power to block a man's business because they don't like his views. If the politicians live in areas where there is no municipal equivalent of the Free Exercise Act, they absolutely should take a referendum to their constituents about whether to bar Chick-fil-A. But let's not have politicians unilaterally deciding whose (legal, Constitutionally protected, Scripture-based, nonviolent) views should be punished.

You ask if there would be the same reaction if Chick-fil-A were giving money to anti-Semitic organizations. I have to say, that for me it would depend. Certainly if he were promoting violence and illegal acts against Jews, I would not be as supportive (though I would hope that the ACLU would go to bat for him as they have for the KKK). However, if he were giving money to a group that, similarly to Exodus, was trying to convert Jews to Christianity, I'd be fine with it.

Recall that those who hold the view that homosexual relations are wrong (and many who don't hold that view) do NOT believe that sexual behaviors require and deserve the same protection as a religious practice. Even those who don't think that homosexuality is wrong may not think that someone should have special protections because they engage in homosexual sex, any more than straight people should have special protections because they (may) engage in heterosexual sex. Those who think it is wrong may look at it as akin to drug addiction - we can argue on how best to address it (counseling, criminal sanctions, social interventions) but it would be irresponsible to encourage it. This does not make them intolerant hate-mongers, which is the position the politicians have taken. It may make them in need of education, but that's an entirely different matter.

And it's worth noting that Exodus isn't the only group that has advocated the position that sexual orientation isn't fixed. Planned Parenthood, Band Together, and the Allsorts Youth Project, LGBTQ-affirming groups all, have argued that gender or sexual orientation are fluid, changeable and on a spectrum. And yet, we don't see much liberal ire in their direction. Why? Because their message is "explore your options,"  much more acceptable in our permissive culture. 

Thanks again!

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Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 8th mo. 11, 2012 at 1:25pm

While I was out in the yard working on my summer "honey do" list(it's where I do my best thinking and praying), the question of how do we as Quakers relate to political interest(advocacy) groups came up.

I don't think it surprises any that interest groups on all sides of a political issues operate in "worldly" unQuakerly fashion. They understand human nature and often play to our base nature- the "earthquake, wind and fire"(fear, anger, tribal allegience, anxiety, etc. not the "still small voice of calm."  We know from elections that negative ads work!!! sigh!

When I was a member of an AFSC regional peace committee I remember an discussions about what groups could we support, realizing that many had aspects of their program that we had reservations about. It was a balancing act- there were core things like advocating violence that vetoed cooperation but on many other issues we compromised our principles to be able to work with others for policitcal change.

If Cathy is like the rest of us, I doubt that he agrees completely with every position of the group that he supports. What is undeniable is that he deeply concerned about the impending collapse of the "traditional family," especially among the lower classes (see the discussion about Charles Murray's "Falling Apart." I share this concern. I think marriage is critical in mediating the male female divide and getting men committed to the project of being faithful husbands and fathers. I think all the evidence shows how important having a stable marriage is for the raising of kids. If you believe this an important issue as Quakers we are called to act and this means working with others who share your conviction. And yes, there will be times when you have to distinguish yourself from some of the positions of the groups that you support.

But we already have to do this when we vote. I never have voted for a candidate who sees the world exactly like I do. And yet I vote, anyway for the person who comes closest or is with me on the issues I think most important. Ah, we live in this world and yet seek not to be conformed to it but playing the same game that they do.

Blessings,
Herb

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Permalink Reply by Adria Gulizia on 8th mo. 12, 2012 at 12:09pm

Herb, thank you for this.

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Permalink Reply by David Nelson Seaman on 8th mo. 13, 2012 at 6:43pm

I agree, Herb.  You compassion for others is tuely heartfelt.   I clicked on the "Equalitymatters.org/fact sheet" website posted by Jeff, and admitt I was rather disappointed it was a gay activists media blog, and not an organization which was balanced, or more neutral, on the subject.  

It seems certain reparative therapy, which seemed to be one of the media's primary targets and concern of some of Jeff's friends, was never a  licensed behavior modification clinical "treatment", per se.  However, many of the Exodus staff are "ex-gay", its efforts primarily faith based, which everyone associated with the program knew up front.    They have apparently backed away from using questionable clinical terminologies.   The Exodus program seems to have press and political muscle, so the general public may have been led in this media event, inadvdertantly, to a infighting between two opposing gay themed groups; ex-gays vs. gays, with Chic-fil-A getting roasted ( no pun intended ), by being in the middle.    

What this media experience may have done is brought into public view more knowledge of the Exodus program, and that there are "ex-gays" out there who are in disagreemnet with some mainstream gay political groups who are also vocal and lend policial support to gay issues from their point of view.            

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