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Permalink Reply by Katherine Simmons on 8th mo. 4, 2011 at 9:55pm

I have a couple of thoughts . . . first, it's a worse punishment for David to see his son die because of his deeds than if he himself were punished.  So the suffering is intensified through this indirect form of retribution.  But even in using the word "retribution" I have hit upon a fault in this line of thinking, which is that it puts God in the unsavory (and ungodlike?) position of punishing an innocent for the misdeeds of another.  Hence, I prefer not to think of it along these lines, though of course it is true that the anguish David must have felt knowing that his misdeeds would cause his son to suffer must have been tremendous.

 

My second thought is that the "child that is born" to David could be understood as Jesus, who was born of the house of David, and/or it could be understood as the entire lineage born of David.  I think there is a great deal of mystery in this approach (or at least, aspects that I can't claim to understand) but a certain inherent logic that when the people "scorn the Lord" a twisted, bad result ensues -- not because God directs it but because it flows naturally and inevitably from the twisted, bad behavior.  If we focus too much on the individual, it becomes a stumbling block to us, who don't understand how/why David's son must suffer.  But if we view it from the vantage point of a nation or tribe, and focus on the interconnectedness of the people of God, it is clearer that wrong behavior ripples out and affects everyone, innocent or not.  David has wrought something that is much bigger than he anticipated or wanted.  He has hurt his community.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 8th mo. 5, 2011 at 12:19am

Keeping track of the tribes in the old testament isn't easy.  In this case I believe God gave David of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin.  So the remaining 10 tribes which excluded the tribe of Levi, were given to Jeroboam.  Jos_14:4  For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance.   So you could say there were actually 13 tribes but who's counting?

Making things more confusing Manasseh is broken up into two half tribes, one on each side of the Jordan and Ephraim went astray and sided with Syria against Israel and God disowned them for at least a while.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 5, 2011 at 11:50am

This likewise seemed wrong to me, viewed as badly-aimed 'punishment.' If a human court were to decide, "Okay, you did wrong and now we're going to kill your baby son," that would certainly horrify people.

 

Death imposed by human beings is "a punishment." Death imposed by God is a condition of life as we know it. If you can trust God to direct your life, then death doesn't need to be seen as a bad fate for a person, whatever their age. It would sadden others. Again, while it is certainly "a punishing blow" for parents to suffer, it doesn't need to be seen as "a punishment" of them.

 

In this particular case... The deep background story is that God has chosen this one people as a means of overcoming the inherent "sinfulness" of human beings.

 

Whatever "sin" means to you, or doesn't, it is clear that David has done something outrageous. It outrages even him, the way Nathan describes the situation.

 

There's a piece I left out-- describing how David's commander reacts to the order-- He really doesn't like it, but he does it. And reports, ~'If he wants to complain about me putting my troops too close to the enemy wall and losing one of our best fighters, tell him that Uriah the Hittite also died, crushed by a millstone one of their woman threw from the wall.'

 

We've got this nation, just recently gone from loose tribal alliance to a monarchy... and their first ruler, chosen from them by God, is already abusing his position and insinuating corruption into his own government.

 

What Katherine Simmons said, about "the interconnectedness of the people of God," really tied this together for me.

 

Not only are all people interconnected, at a level of consciousness below what we normally feel, but there seem to be more palpable connections between smaller groupings. "We're all telepathic," sayeth Stephen Gaskin. How can this be, when we're so much unaware of it, in normal circumstances? He describes an ego, a personal consciousness, as being 'like a hole in a fence.' The hole may be bigger, so you can see more through it. Or it may be smaller, and show less. But there's a field of mental processes going on behind the fence, what we see being a small part of it.

 

If a ruler is too corrupt for his nation-- or too good-- They throw him off. Elections make the process easier on everyone, but it will find a way to happen.

 

David is an appropriate ruler for this people, as they are at the time of this story. His troops bring Bathsheba over for a hot date; probably they ask very politely, but is David a safe man to refuse? His previous career as a cunning bandit chief isn't altogether reassuring. His commander obeys a secret, illegitimate order. Everybody in the kingdom has gossiped about this affair... and can David now adopt this 'son of Uriah'?

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 7, 2011 at 4:38pm

1 Kings 12.26-13.10

 

And Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David. If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the House of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam King of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam King of Judah."

So the King took counsel, and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt." And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. And this thing became a sin, for the people went to the one at Bethel and to the other as far as Dan. He also made temples on high places, and appointed priests from among the people, who were not of the Levites.

And Jeroboam appointed a feast on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the feast that was in Judah; and he offered sacrifices upon the altar; so he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made. And he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places that he had made. He went up to the altar which he had made in Bethel on the fifteenth day in the eighth month, in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and he ordained a feast for the people of Israel, and went up to the altar to burn incense.

And behold, a man of God came out of Judah by the word of the Lord to Bethel.

Jeroboam was standing by the altar to burn incense. And the man cried against the altar by the word of the Lord, and said, "O altar, altar, thus says the Lord: 'Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name; and he shall sacrifice upon you the priests of the high places who burn incense upon you; and men's bones shall be burnt upon you.'"

And he gave a sign the same day, saying, "This is the sign that the Lord has spoken: 'Behold, the altar shall be torn down, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.' "

And when the King heard the saying of the man of God, which he cried against the altar at Bethel, Jeroboam stretched out his hand from the altar, saying, "Lay hold of him."

And his hand, which he stretched out against him, dried up, so that he could not draw it back to himself. The altar also was torn down, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the Lord.

And the King now said to the man of God, "Entreat now the favor of the Lord your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me."

And the man of God entreated the Lord; and the King's hand was restored to him, and became as it was before. And the King said to the man of God, "Come home with me, and refresh yourself, and I will give you a reward."

And the man of God said to the King, "If you will give me half your house, I will not go in with you. And I will not eat bread or drink water in this place, for so was it commanded me by the word of the Lord, saying 'You shall neither eat bread, nor drink water, nor return by the way that you came.'"

So he went another way, and did not return by the way that he came to Bethel.

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Permalink Reply by Katherine Simmons on 8th mo. 7, 2011 at 10:38pm

?????!!!!  I am lost!

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 8, 2011 at 1:14am

If you were a king... and your subjects belonged to a religion centered in your rival's capitol... that wouldn't be convenient. So Jeroboam wants to set up his own state religion ala Henry VIII's Church of England.

 

The priests who have set up shop in Jerusalem see this as an erosion of their authority and of God's authority. In fact much of what history we have of Israel (that is, the monarchy of the northern tribes) is about power struggle between their kings and their local prophets.

 

That "golden calf" in Exodus-- probably was incorporated into that story as a priestly allusion to Jeroboam's local cult, with its scandalous practice of allowing non-pedigreed priests.

 

A "calf" of this sort-- actually a bull-- is one of the ancient traditional symbols of YHYH, so Jeroboam is not really imposing the cult of some unfamiliar god. It doesn't look like most of the ancient tribes of Israel were strictly monotheistic or altogether opposed to idols. But idols do have the feature, attractive to rulers & deplored by the devout, of being very amenable to their owner's interests. Which is to occasion much of the friction between later monarchs and prophets.

 

This prophet is a supporter of the Jerusalem priesthood. He disapproves so heartily of Jeroboam's religious practice that he has vowed not to eat or drink in his territory.

 

It gets even stranger, soon!

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Permalink Reply by Eric H-L on 8th mo. 9, 2011 at 6:04pm

Why did God have mercy on Jeraboams poor dried hand? Is there some way this act of cursing the hand and then removing the curse could be read as some kind of symbolism?

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 9, 2011 at 6:37pm

As thou sayest... whether or not this physically happened, it sounds like Jeroboam lost control here. And there was a definite limit to how much this prophet was willing to 'strengthen his hand.'

 

Something like: ~I won't say you aren't King here, but I don't hold with your heathen ways.

 

This soon after all those stories in Judges... there were probably plenty of Israelites (including those in the tribe of Judah) who wouldn't have found anything objectionable in a sacrifice to an image of YHWH ( or 'His consort') but we've got a religious establishment in Jerusalem that strongly favors tightening the rules, enforcing monotheism, keeping out non-union priests.

 

That sounds like a very self-serving, class-interest sort of religion-- But there is one benefit to an hereditary priestly class: The King can't appoint new ones every time his power conflicts with one of their stands.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 12, 2011 at 9:12pm

1 Kings 13.11-32

 

Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel. And his sons came and told him all that the man of God had done that day in Bethel; the words also which he had spoken to the King, they told their father. And their father said to them, "Which way did he go?"

And his sons showed him the way which the man of God from Judah had gone.

And he said to his sons, "Saddle the ass for me."

So they saddled the ass for him and he mounted it. And he went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak; and he said to him, "Are you the man of God who came from Judah?"

And he said, "I am."

Then he said to him, "Come home with me and eat bread."

And he said, "I may not return with you, or go in with you; neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place, for it was said to me by the word of the Lord, 'You shall neither eat bread nor drink water there, nor return by the way that you came.'"

And he said to him, "I am also a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the Lord, saying 'Bring him back with you into your house that he may eat bread and drink water.'" But he lied to him.

So he went back with him, and ate bread in his house, and drank water.

And as they sat at the table, the word of the Lord came to the prophet who had brought him back; and he cried to the man who had come from Judah, "Thus says the Lord, 'Because you have disobeyed the word of the Lord, and have not kept the commandment which the Lord your God commanded you, but have come back, and have eaten bread and drunk water in the place of which he said to you, "Eat no beard, and drink no water"; your body shall not come to the tomb of your fathers.'" And after he had eaten bread and drunk, he saddled the ass for the prophet he had brought back.

And as he went away a lion met him on the road and killed him. And his body was thrown in the road, and the ass stood beside it; the lion also stood beside the body.

And behold, men passed by, and saw the body thrown in the road, and the lion standing by the body. And they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

And when the prophet who had brought him back from the way heard of it, he said, "It is the man of God who disobeyed the word of the Lord; therefore the Lord has given him to the lion, which has torn him and slain him, according to the word which the Lord spoke to him. And he said to his sons, "Saddle the ass for me."

And they saddled it.

And he went and found his body thrown in the road, and the ass and the lion standing beside the body. The lion had not eaten the body, or torn the ass.

And the prophet took up the body of the man of God and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back to the city, to mourn and to bury him. And he laid the body in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, "Alas, my brother!"

And after he had buried him, he said to his sons, "When I die, bury me in the grave in which the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones. For the saying which he cried by the word of the Lord against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass."

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Permalink Reply by Eric H-L on 8th mo. 13, 2011 at 9:16am

Surely the old prophet of Bethel would have been aware of the danger of  fabricating a false story of angelic message to supercede the divine instructions to the man of God not to eat or drink? And why? It sounds like they kept eating after they got the reminder that they had disobeyed. Whose ass did the man of God ride out on? Did he have his own or was it borrowed? If so, did  the old prophet keep the extra ass? The old prophet mourns the man of God and wants to be buried with him, but does he feel responsible for the death?

 

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 13, 2011 at 9:15pm

It looks like both prophets start out believing that God favored their particular kingdom. The old prophet from Bethel can't believe that a 'real' prophet could be supporting that Jerusalem cult-- So he doesn't, at first, believe in his rival's message, and sets out to discredit him;

 

The visitor has been told that the Samaria regime is so corrupt that he shouldn't even linger to eat or drink in its territory. But he accepts the Bethel prophet's authority... rather than stopping to consult God more directly.

 

I think the old man of Bethel does realize what he's done, after it's too late. If the visitor was misusing his gift... than so was he, and more so! He mourns his 'brother' because he's had to recognize that they did share a common gift, and also its temptations.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 15, 2011 at 11:20am

1 Kings 13.31-14.18

 

After this thing, Jeroboam did not turn from his evil way, but made priests for the high places again from among all the people; any who would, he consecrated to be priests of the high places. And this thing became sin to the house of Jeroboam, so as to cut it off and to destroy it from the face of the Earth.

At that time Abijah the son of Jeroboam fell sick. And Jeroboam said to his wife, "Arise, and disguise yourself, that it not be known that you are the wife of Jeroboam, and go to Shiloh. Behold, Ahijah the prophet is there, who said of me that I should be King over this people. Take with you ten loaves, some cakes, and a jar of honey, and go to him. He will tell you what shall happen to the child."

Jeroboam's wife did so; she arose, and went to Shiloh, and came to the house of Ahijah.

Now Ahijah could not see, for his eyes were dim from age. And the Lord said to Ahijah, "Behold, the wife of Jeroboam is coming to inquire of you concerning her son, for he is sick. Thus and thus shall you say to her."

When she came, she pretended to be another woman.

But when Ahijah heard the sound of her feet, as she came in at the door he said, "Come in, wife of Jeroboam; why do you pretend to be another? For I am charged with heavy tidings for you.

"Go, tell Jeroboam, 'Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: "Because I exalted you from among the people, and made you leader over my people Israel, and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you; and yet you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commandments, and followed me with all his heart, doing only that which was right in my eyes [?!!!], but you have done evil above all that were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods, and molten images, provoking me to anger, and have cast Me behind your back; therefore behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will utterly consume the house of Jeroboam, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone. Any one belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city, the dogs will eat; and any one who dies in the open country the birds of the air shall eat; for the Lord has spoken it."'

"Arise, therefore, go to your house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him; for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him is found something pleasing to the Lord, the God of Israel, Who shall cut off the house of Jeroboam today.

And henceforth, the Lord will smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and root up Israel out of this good land which He gave to their fathers, and scatter them beyond the Euphrates, because they have made their Asherim, provoking the Lord to anger. And He will give Israel up because of the sin of Jeroboam, which he sinned and which he made Israel to sin."

Then Jeroboam's wife arose, and departed, and came to Tirzah. And as she came to the threshold of the house, the child died. And all Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the Lord, which He spoke by his servant Ahijah the prophet.

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