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Permalink Reply by Brianna Ecklid on 6th mo. 21, 2011 at 9:32am

Van de Wettering asked the resident Master at his Zen Monastery whether he was a Buddhist, and was told, "No."

I loved reading that. It is a very "Zen Buddhist" thing to say. =]

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Permalink Reply by Jim Wilson on 6th mo. 21, 2011 at 9:51am

Friend Brianna:

 

I also find the Five Remembrances to be a profoundly helpful contemplations.  I have used them for many years.

 

I question, though, your statement that the Buddhadharma holds no view of an afterlife.  I think that is a very recent, and specifically Western, invention.  Rebirth is a major topic in all Buddhist scriptures; including the Theravada, Mahayana, and the Vajrayana.  It is difficult to go for more than three pages without rebirth being mentioned or implied.  An entire section of the Buddhist Canon, the Jataka Tales, is devoted to the previous lives of the Buddha.

 

In many ways rebirth is the dominant view of the ordinary Buddhist in traditional Buddhist cultures.  Westerners tend to take a very cerebral approach to Buddhism, but in traditional Buddhist cultures laypeople go to the temple, make offerings, attend lectures, etc., for the purpose of acquiring merit and the purpose of acquiring merit is to obtain a better rebirth next time around.  The largest yearly celebration of East Asian Buddhism (Ullambana, or in Japanese Obon) has the purpose of generating large quanitites of merit which can then be transferred to one's ancestors so that one's ancestors can also obtain a better rebirth in the future.

 

Pure Land Buddhism is the numerically largest Buddhist tradition in East Asia; it dwarfs the number of adherents to Zen or any other tradition.  The purpose of this tradition is to attain rebirth in Amitabha's (Buddha of infinite light and life) Pure Land, a land of bliss where it is possible to practice the Buddhadharma and become enlightened. 

 

I do not know of any Buddhist tradition where rebirth is not a central teaching and reality.  Again, the idea that one can have Buddhism without rebirth is very, very recent; I would say in the last 20 to 30 years, and it is a view that one finds primarily in the West, and among Asians influenced by western secularism.  But it is a completely ahistorical interpretation and does not represent the view held by countless of ordinary Buddhists today, or any (and I do mean any) Buddhist teaching from the past.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jim

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Permalink Reply by Brianna Ecklid on 6th mo. 21, 2011 at 10:20am

Dear Jim,

 Thank you for your reply! I must admit I overlooked that aspect. You are very correct- Buddhism teaches about an afterlife and sects like Jodo Shinshu are huge and seem to be mostly about the afterlife. I suppose I wrote incorrectly. I should have said  that for me, Buddhism has been less about an afterlife and more about the here and now. 

 

 Thank you for correcting my mistake. 

Cheers,

Bree

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Permalink Reply by Leslie Rodgers on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 10:30am

   Wow.

    Bree and Jim are both right ; )

    One huge thing Jesus and the Buddha have in common is that they each taught a really good chapter, and then their followers, and the followers of their followers have added books and books and books of teachings onto the original and it is all now thought of as Christianity and Buddhism.

    The Buddha himself never set out to create an all encompassing religion. Nor did he ever promise to save anyone's soul, or bring them to a heaven.  He taught 'awakening', the process of letting go of our illusions and seeing life as it is.

     He saw that some of our suffering is just the pain itself, for example the pain of a broken leg. Much of our suffering, however, is mental suffering that comes not from a situation but from our ideas about it. Why did I have to have a broken leg? Oh poor me...now I can't ride my bicycle, now I can't dance, maybe my leg will heal crooked and I'll limp and no one will ever want to date me again because I'm this homely person with a limp and why did I have to have a broken leg when none of my friends have a broken leg...ooooh poor poor me.....

     The first kind of suffering is unavoidable. The second kind is strictly optional, and if you don't like suffering you can choose more productive ways of thinking and not have that suffering.

     As the Buddha's teachings were carried from India to Tibet, Nepal, China and beyond the local people essentially added these teachings  onto whatever religion they practiced, which worked fine for them, but leaves us in a muddle of teachings from many sources.

    A similar thing happened with Jesus and his teachings.

  

      Unless someone finds a way to erase history this is unlikely to ever get less confusing.

      For myself, I was baptized as a child, raised in a Christian home, I study the Bible, pray, but because I do not agree with all the creeds and doctrines made up by men I do not consider myself a Christian. 

     Likewise I took Soto Zen Buddhist vows many years ago, still practice meditation, follow the Buddha's precepts, but because I do not believe the afterlife theories of the various schools I am reluctant to advertise myself as a Buddhist. 

 

      The original teachings are so beautiful to me, but the added on and re-interpreted bits put me off. 

 

      Happily God,  (whatever God is and I'm not bright enough to know) is quite capable of instructing me as needed, when I'm willing to hush up and listen.  We don't need a middle-man.

 

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Permalink Reply by funnel101 on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 11:42am

This is well-said.

 

For me personally, I consider myself agnostic and apathetic about the afterlife: I acknowledge that reincarnation is certainly possible, as is going to heaven (I don't usually believe in hell, except as a self-imposed idea, as it goes against everything I've ever believed about God), but what interests me most is life. 

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Permalink Reply by Jim Wilson on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 12:18pm

Hi Leslie:

 

I enjoyed your post and particularly the way you briefly touched on your own journey.

 

I would only add that in my opinion the idea of rebirth isn't an add-on; I think it goes all the way back to the original teachings of the Buddha.  I would place it right at the center and heart of the Buddhadharma, right up their with the Four Noble Truths that you alluded to and his view of karma.  I think there is a tendency among westerners to regard views they either don't like or disagree with as in some sense extraneous, or later additions, to Buddhism (a similar process happens with other Eastern traditions).  However, the earliest strata of Buddhist Discourses assumes the reality of rebirth.  In addition, the earliest archaeological remains in India, such as the first Stupas, contain inscriptions that assume rebirth as a (I would say 'the') central tenet of lay Buddhist practice. 

 

I think it is fine to borrow Buddhist techniques and repackage them, adapt them to new circumstances, etc.  But I think we should be honest about what we are doing.  Certain Buddhist contemplations and techniques are efficacious regardless of the spiritual context and have been previously absorbed into non-Buddhist traditions such as Taoism or Shinto.  There's no reason not to do the same thing in the west.  But I think we should be upfront and say what it is we are doing rather than projecting our preferences back onto the Buddha's life, teaching and time.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim

 

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Permalink Reply by Leslie Rodgers on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 1:35pm

  I didn't say the idea of rebirth is an add-on.    Certainly the basis of the Buddha's spiritual search was about trying to sort out truth from fiction in what his culture believed about an endless cycle of birth-death-rebirth.

  I said I don't believe the afterlife theories of the various schools ( which differ rather drastically in some cases).

   Perhaps I should better have worded it  "the trying to control where you go in the afterlife practices" of the various schools of Buddhism.  I don't particularly believe in Christianity's various "trying to control where you go in the afterlife" practices either ; )

     The afterlife is neither here nor there. Fussing over where we came from or where we may or may not be going next is a tremendous distraction from the more vital issue of what sort of people do we want to be here, now, in this life, in this moment. When people squabble over things it is impossible to know, they squander the time they actually have.

    Am trying to learn not to do that.

 

    Your "borrow Buddhist techniques and repackage them" phrase confuses me.  When Christians take bread and wine in remembrance of Christ, as he instructed, or when they recite The Lord's Prayer, as he instructed, are they "borrowing and repackaging" his "techniques"?  I doubt if they think of it that way.

   Likewise, when I sit and listen I am sitting still and listening. Not borrowing and repackaging techniques. The Buddha was a swell guy, but he didn't invent sitting, being quiet, or paying attention. He merely invited others to give these things a try.

  

 

   

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Permalink Reply by Leslie Rodgers on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 1:36pm

Apathetic about the afterlife?

Ah, Funnel, I adore you!

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Permalink Reply by funnel101 on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 1:41pm

I was raised Catholic, so I grew up being taught about heaven and hell as reward and punishment. That never made sense to me and seemed to cheapen the act of doing good. So, I decided that even if doing the right thing meant I'd go to hell, that's what I'd do, because it was the right thing.

 

Hence the apathy about the afterlife: I'm going to do the right thing as I understand it, regardless of afterlife consequences (or lack thereof).

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Permalink Reply by james on 6th mo. 22, 2011 at 6:49pm

i try not to look at past or future or afterlife,  although i wonder and imagen that new earth  sometimes.  the only time the creator wants thee to study is now.   heaven is earth and people need to look at our earth.   humans are just destroying our earth and trying to cut down her rain forests and taking advantage of everything our creator gave us.  people look to much at what they want next and not what they have.   there is soon gonna be a new earth where there is nothing but peace and people getting along with each other.  i believe that's what revelation is talking about after these last days where all this non sense is going on.   have a blessed day

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