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Comment by Cotswold Quaker on 12th mo. 17, 2010 at 12:08pm

Hi Jeff, thanks for your thoughts on this. I think these issues have been a point of debate for Quakers since the earliest of times in our Quaker history and will continue....... 

The word "supernaturalism" is used as a superficial description in the way you describe, meaning ghosts and ghouls. It is used here in its more precise meaning: Some definitions: the free dictionary; the condition or quality of existing outside the known experience of humanity or caused by forces beyond those of nature. wikipedia; anything above or beyond what one holds to be natural or exists outside natural law and the observable universe. merriam-webster;  relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil. These are 3 I found easily on a google search. In my humble opinion, if something is beyond human experience or outside the natural world, then I cannot see that it can be known to us, only guessed at or imagined. God tends to be imagined in human form or expression because we are human and its almost impossible to imagine things that are outside our experience because our social conditioning and culture tends to fix our imaginations. Not impossible, but very difficult. I think of this as a little bit like the relationship we have with the individual or collective unconscious. The idea of god as an aspect of religious experience is part of the unconscious mind, shared by a society, a people, or all humankind, that is the product of ancestral experience alongside morality. I conjecture. I do not know for sure, it's how I try to make sense of life as I experience it. I accept that others have a real experience and relationship with their god. My partner believes in god, differently to you. I would hope that you are willing to accept the diverse experiences and explanations of god and relationships to god that flourish among the peoples of the world.  I think its likely that you and I have more in common with each other than you have with very many other theists in the world. What DOES bother me is if some people think I believe in god, but use different words to explain it, so eliminating my experience and difference, or that I have no right to be there because I think differently.  It's true that nontheist is a negative, yet I have never experienced  not believing in god as a negative state. I think the language is more a reflection of the religious privilege that exists in our society, whereby religious institutions tend to think they have the monopoly on human expression and experience.  Personally, I  find that belief in god is less important than how we treat each other, how we forgive the inevitable pain we cause each other and the way we heal that pain and make life together. So when I am in meeting for worship, I try to sense the unifying humanity I share with others present. Even though I know that someone is flipping through Faith and Practice, composing a shopping list, a child is building a tower out of the footstools, etc,etc. Sometimes a meeting finds it hard to settle, but with the help of more experienced people present, we can help the meeting settle and it might be that we achieve 5 or 10 minutes of gathered meeting together. What I value about Quaker "worthship" is that it requires our collective participation; it is not an individual discipline, but r

Comment by Cotswold Quaker on 11th mo. 25, 2010 at 8:18pm

Hi Forrest and Alice, Thanks for dropping by. Forrest, you interpreted the Nontheist Friends event as for "People who find the idea of anything being supernatural distasteful, unnatural to their ways of thought" The actual description refers to "Friends who are uneasy with supernaturalism" No negatives. No positions. Only doubts and questions. There are many Quakers whose relationship to god, the divine, the spirit, etc, has changed or who wish to explore with others how their journey is proceeding. Some are no longer convinced of the divine or want to explore what they think, feel, experience in relation to a religious or spiritual path as a Quaker. Test, test and test again! In my experience, there is nothing more Quakerly than to share and explore ones relationship to these questions, to acknowledge change as positive and a sign of life! The early Quakers seized on the newest technologies and language of their day to do this same thing: using the printing press (as we are using the internet) and GF himself preferred to use the term "experimentally" rather than experientially" to describe his own spiritual journey, a word in use during his time, by the new sciences. Early Quakers only had the bible to reference their experience but with the printing press, they created a rich new source of references which they used (and we still do), to develop and grow their movement and our theology and generations of editions of Faith and Practice are a testament to this proliferation. GF encouraged early Quakers to use old words in new ways to reflect their new Quaker values and theology and to examine (or as we say now, test, test and test again!) their spiritual experience and ministry. They were a forward looking and thinking people living in and emerging out of a time of amazing social, economic and spiritual change and renewal. And Quakers are still a forward looking people even at the end of empire days we live in. I think Quaker theology is the best suited and progressive of all the Christian theologies to embrace the challenge of the modern world and modern science, as we are doing now through these computers.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 25, 2010 at 1:26pm

There are ways of recognizing the animate, conscious, spiritual nature of the world without explicitly getting personal with it. I myself habitually get as personal with "It" as I know how, having concluded that a Being who "persons" everyone can certainly take a personal form for God/human interactions.

But I'd agree with Alice (I think) that neither Quaker faith nor practice make any sense in a scientistic world-view, which in any event happens to be contraFactual...

People who find the idea of anything being "supernatural" distasteful, unnatural to their ways of thought... might profitably consider that what's truly natural can include a great many phenomena beyond what people commonly include in their concepts of it.

Comment by Alice M Yaxley on 11th mo. 25, 2010 at 5:39am

I don't think there will be many Friends on this site who will go - it is specifically excluding of anyone who does not agree with the nontheist position - "Friends who are uneasy with supernaturalism are invited".
On this site we tend to attract folks who have an understanding of the Quaker path that finds kinship in the journals and heritage of our Quaker way, which are all about relationship with God, which I think is what the nontheist folks refer to as "supernaturalism".
Being Quaker as I understand it is a discipleship, a collective commitment to intimate relationship with God, following Christ. That is excluded by this group of nontheists if I understand their position correctly.